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broBW

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Reply with quote  #31 

VF-213 Black Lions

The World Famous Fighting Blacklions fly the F-14D Tomcat, based out of of Naval Air Station Oceana located in Virginia Beach, Virgnia. VF-213 was last stationed at NAS Miramar in San Diego, Califiornia and moved to Virginia Beach in 1997. VF-213 is currently part of Carrier Air Wing Eleven (CVW-11) based aboard the USS Carl Vinson (CVN-70).

The Fighting Blacklions of VF-213 were commissioned as a Navy Fighter Squadron on 22 June 1955 at NAS Moffett Field, California. The BLACKLIONS flew the F-2H3 Banshee during their first deployment aboard USS BON HOMME RICHARD (CV-31), then transitioned to the F-4D Skyray for their next two deployments on USS LEXINGTON (CV-16). By their third WESTPAC deployment aboard the "LEX," they were flying the F-3H2 Demon, giving the squadron their first capability with the newly released AIM-7 Sparrow air-to-air missile.

In June 1961, the squadron moved to its new home at NAS Miramar -- "FIGHTERTOWN USA." Three years later, in February 1964, the BLACKLIONS took a quantum leap forward in fighter capability by accepting the first of their new F-4 Phantoms. In November 1965, VF-213 joined Carrier Air Wing 11 (CVW-11) and began the first of six combat deployments to Southeast Asia aboard USS KITTY HAWK (CV-64). This deployment marked the first use of the Phantom as a conventional bomber--a role destined to make the Phantom a mainstay of the US Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps. Over the next seven years, the BLACKLIONS flew over 11,500 combat missions and delivered over 6,000 tons of ordnance. On 20 December 1966, LT D. A. McRae and ENS D. N. Nichols downed an enemy AN-2 Colt for the squadron's first kill. In March 1971, VF-213 became the first fleet squadron to fly the Phantom more than 1,000 hours in a single month.

In December 1976, VF-213 transitioned to the Navy's premier supersonic fighter -- the F-14A Tomcat. April 1982 found a new mission for the BLACKLIONS when they began training with the Tactical Air Reconnaissance Pod System, or TARPS. In September of that year, the squadron began their first deployment aboard USS ENTERPRISE (CVN-65). During Indian Ocean Operations, the BLACKLIONS again set the standard by flying the longest tasked carrier flight for a Tomcat when they completed a 1,775-mile TARPS mission.

During WESTPAC '88, the BLACKLIONS took an active role in ensuring the safe transit of reflagged tankers through the Persian Gulf and the Straights of Hormuz. That same deployment saw VF-213 in action in the Operation Praying Mantis naval conflict with Iran on 18 April 1988. The BLACKLIONS won the prestigious "BOOLA BOOLA" award in March 1989 for their aggressive professional completion of all missile test firings. That fall, VF-213 and CVW-11 went around the world on USS ENTERPRISE's final WESTPAC deployment, dropping her off in Norfolk, Virginia for refurbishment.

In September 1990, VF-213 and CVW-11 went back to the shipyards of Norfolk, Virginia, to embark on the Navy's newest nuclear powered aircraft carrier, USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN (CVN-72). After a successful transit around the horn of South America, "ABE" took up residence at her new home in Alameda, California.

In 1991, the BLACKLIONS deployed on USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN's maiden WESTPAC cruise in support of Operation Desert Storm. Day and night Combat Air Patrol flights by the BLACKLIONS over Kuwait enforced the United Nations' sanctions on Iraq, while TARPS missions recorded the devastation of Kuwait oil fields.

In 1992, VF-213 won the coveted "MUTHA" award for espirit de corps and took honors as the Pacific Fleet's top fighter squadron when they won the 1992 Fighter Derby. The squadron deployed for the second time aboard USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN in 1993, participating in Operation Southern Watch over Iraq and Operation Restore Hope in Somalia. Upon their return to "FIGHTERTOWN," VF-213 began a turnaround for their next deployment, during which they again won the "MUTHA" award. From April to October 1995, the BLACKLIONS again deployed aboard "ABE" in support of Operation Southern Watch. The squadron made history by deploying with the first fully integrated Tomcat super squadron. Their maintenance department highlighted itself as all fourteen assigned Tomcats were airborne at once over the skies of Iraq and Kuwait.

Both air crew from a U.S. Navy F-14A have been safely recovered following a crash in the Pacific Ocean 800 miles west of Guam on 20 September 1995. The two aviators were safely recovered by a USS John Paul Jones' (DDG 53) small boat shortly after their aircraft crashed in the water approximately 56 miles from the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN 72). USS John Paul Jones was a part of the Abraham Lincoln Battle Group. The aircraft was from Fighter Squadron 213 (VF-213), based at Naval Air Station Miramar, Calif. The squadron is part of Carrier Airwing 11. The Abraham Lincoln Battle Group was returning home after a six-month deployment to the Western Pacific and Arabian Gulf.

VF-213 then moved its operations to the USS KITTY HAWK, where the squadron deployed for six weeks on RIMPAC '97 and six months on WESTPAC '97. During RIMPAC '97, the BLACKLIONS fired twenty-six Phoenix and six Sidewinder missiles, including an unprecedented six plane, twelve missile simultaneous Phoenix shoot. Aboard USS KITTY HAWK on WESTPAC '97, VF-213 maintained a most impressive 99 percent sortie completion rate and set the new record for consecutive Tomcat sorties at 804, while earning the CVW-11 "TOP HOOK" award.

After returning from cruise, the BLACKLIONS departed the USS KITTY HAWK and, five hours later, roared into Virginia. With NAS Miramar, now MCAS Miramar, in their rear view mirror, the Lions found a warm welcome at NAS Oceana. In December 1997, VF-213 completed its transition to the F-14D and moved to the USS CARL VINSON (CVN-70). Aboard their new ship, the BLACKLIONS returned to the Pacific to participate in RIMPAC '98, during which the squadron executed another successful missile exercise, this time firing one Sidewinder and six Phoenix missiles. After RIMPAC '98, the BLACKLIONS executed another historic missile exercise; this time firing the first AIM-54C launched by an aircrew on night vision goggles.

Currently, the BLACKLIONS are stationed at NAS Oceana after returning from the CARL VINSON's 1999 WESTPAC deployment to the Arabian Gulf. Only two months into the cruise, the BLACKLIONS participated in Operation Desert Fox and made history by becoming the first F-14's to ever launch an AIM-54C in combat, launching two missiles against Iraqi fighters violating the Iraqi No-Fly Zone. The BLACKLIONS and AIRWING ELEVEN completed WESTPAC '99 successfully and were able to boast the longest combat line period in over 25 years.


JimPhillips

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Reply with quote  #32 
There were a few more items in your post I wanted to address, bro. Steve.

Quote:

Although its economy and naval base is the biggest in the world, Britain is still in there at number four in the world economy league tables and is the second most powerful naval force in the world.    It would take very little to see things change so that America spent less on defense. 


I think the magnitude of the difference between the US and the rest of the world, is hard to fathom.  It is not so much that the US is first and Britain is fourth in the rating of economies, it is that Britain would have to out perform the US economy by 600 % to just get even.  When 5% growth is considered a wonderful thing for an established nation how do we envision a nation getting to those numbers, at least if we are to look for Christ's return in our lifetimes?

Then when we place Britain in the world that is, and consider it, it seems even more unfathomable.  For instance, you talk about Britain rebuilding her Navy.  Just to equal US spending, Britain would have to spend 25% of her GDP on defense.  That would bankrupt her.  (And just for the record, the US Vice President candidate on the Democratic side, Senator Joe Biden, recently said that the US Navy is not now sufficient for the task before it, and hasn't been since 1988--which was the end of President Reagan's term.)  And that would be for just one year.  The US buildup of its military has been going on since 1980.

How then can we envision tremendous economic growth, while undertaking a policy sure to destroy her economy?  Former President Ronald Reagan asked for 3% increase which Britain complied with for a time, but then notified the US she could not afford to keep up such a pace.

And where does the increase in economic strength come from?  When the war looms, Britain will lose her greatest trading partners, those of continental Europe.  

Apart from war, what would motivate Britain to embark on such a build up of its military such as you imagine?  You reference the US buildup under President Roosevelt.  That only came under the pressure of war.  Is it not inconceivable to think of Britain engaging in such a program, if she was not facing the inevitability of war?

And if she is facing war, is it not inconceivable that her enemies would allow such ship building, and that they would not keep her under constant attack?  Remember not only has Britain failed to produce a Navy that can leave the Island, they have also failed to produce an air force that can defend Britain.  Note the Russian incursion this past month, which was solely due to no planes available to intercept a Russian bomber.

So here is the problem.  The British economy must expand 600% , while increasing ship building 1000%, while losing traditional trading partners, and under violent attack from neighboring states.

Then, they must leave Britain to go fight a war in Israel, to defend a country a large part of the British population wrote off years ago, and of which a significant minority within Britain hates.  A country, by the way, who didn't like the British the last time they were there, and would not be of a mind to depend on now.
JimPhillips

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Reply with quote  #33 

Another point from your post, bro. Steve.

Quote:
One thing we know for sure is that the Gogian host will be much more powerful than Tarshish and her young lions at the time of the end, for the latter will be powerless to intervene successfully.

Again, I’m not saying you are definitely wrong, here, bro. Steve. I’m simply pointing out that this is not a part of bro. Thomas’ exposition. Again, from The Destiny of the British Empire:

Quote:
"It is then added as a contemporary event: ' Thou breakest the ships of Tarshish with an East wind'—(Ps xlvhi. 7). This implies' that the ships broken and scattered are a fleet in the Mediterranean, which would be exposed to a hurricane from the East. This will doubtless be the British Mediterranean fleet co-operating with the land forces against the Russian armies in the Holy Land. The pride of Britain, and probably of America, in maritime alliance with her against the common enemy of Constitutional government and liberty, will be laid low by the wreck of the most powerful and magnificent fleet that ever floated upon the Sea of Tarshish."–The Destiny of the British Empire

The notion that Tarshish must be inferior to Gog before she advances on the Holy Land, is not the teaching of bro. Thomas. It is not Gog who destroys the Tarshish fleet, it is God. The pride of Britain and America are not laid low by Russia. The east wind, a special storm prepared by God, blows upon the fleet, destroying them. Gog then rushes into this vacuum, overwhelming the defenseless land forces of Tarshish and her young lions, before the fleet can be restored.

There is so much to be speculated upon, as to the future of the US military, that it is hard to know where to begin. Believing in the inevitability of a Democratic victory in the 2008 elections, Congressman Barney Frank declared a 25% cut in military spending. That would bring the US from spending about $ 400 Billion per year to $ 300 Billion. Still 10 times the spending of most nations, but a large cut indeed.

But many administrations have found even small cuts difficult, because some Congressman’s district will lose money, and that Congressman will fight tooth and nail, to protect the money already coming to his district. Everyone supports cuts in the military, until they find out their district is on the "hit list." Then those states join together to oppose the local cuts, and render any cuts impossible.

Then there is the recent admission from Senator Joe Biden, that an Obama presidency will be hit with an international event within 6 months of taking office, as the world tries to challenge the metal of the young president. And Senator Biden went on to say that the nation will not support the decisions the new administration makes. Such talk brings to mind back to when the presidency of President George W. Bush, was in the candidate stage. He claimed in advance of his presidency, that his administration would not be involved in foreign affairs. Then came 9-11, which ushered in a complete change in his plans. Man proposes, and God disposes.

The point is this. We may or may not see a decline in the US military presence. It is not relevant to God’s plan. What is relevant is that there must be a Tarshish, an economic, trading giant supported by the greatest Navy ever seen floating upon the sea of Tarshish, at the time of the end.

STEVEPHS

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Reply with quote  #34 
Dear Bro Jim

I have been away in London this past week so my apologies for any delay in posting back.

As a die hard supporter of "Britain is Tarshish" I look forward to making some comments on the basis that:

1.  Nowhere in Scripture do we have evidence that points to Tarshish removing from the India-East and Britain-West Tarshish powers to some other place such as the US; and

2.  Bro Growcott, like myself, believes that the increase in activity by the US in the mid-east, is the work of a young lion as opposed to the US becoming Tarshish.  Notice how bro Growcott had witnessed the demise of Britain as you point out extensively here, but that didn't convince bro Growcott that Britian had lost the Tarshish status.   Bro Growcott, in Be Ye Transformed, Volume II, "Last Forty Years" says: -

Quote:
 

It was bro. Thomas' conviction, from various prophecies, that the Tarshish Power, the friend and defender of Israel, would be the first to be aware of the divine nature of the New Power in the Southern Desert, and would submit to it and enter into secret alliance with it.

He wrote long before Britain had entered and occupied much of the Mideast, as he saw it would have to do to fulfill its appointed work of establishing the restored remnant "in the midst of the land." Since his day we have seen Britain come in and fulfill in marvelous detail what he saw laid out for her by the finger of prophecy.

However, with the passage of time, both Britain's world power and her presence in the Mideast has of late greatly diminished, as the principal part of her work was completed.

But as Britain has receded from the area, the activity of one of the "young lions" (Eze. 38:13) has grown there, and today both Britain and United States have close ties with the basic areas involved—Jordan and Saudi Arabia: sufficiently so that bro. Thomas' expectation of a secret alliance with the New Mideast Kingdom of Christ in the transformed deserts of Arabia are quite reasonable.

But the reaction of the enemies of Israel—the Europe-Papal-Russian alliance—is very different. They will not know of the true nature of the New Power in the earth, nor of the relation of Tarshish to it. All they will know is that it is an expansive, dictatorial, aggressive Power with a new religion that is subversive and intolerant of all other religions. They will know that its power is gradually being extended.

THERE MUST BE A TARSHISH POWER PROTECTING THE LAND

Bro. Thomas, writing over fifty years before Britain liberated and occupied Palestine, expected Britain to still be in control of that land when these things were happening. He did not foresee the further development of Britain's removal and Jewish independence. He knew from Ezekiel 38:13 that there must be a Tarshish power affording protection, and that Israel herself must be (v. 11)—

"Dwelling safely; without walls, bars, or gates."

He expected that Britain, under the instigation and protection of Christ, would cleanse Jerusalem of all the Greek, Roman and Moslem idols and shrines, and that this would arouse the Beast, false Prophet and Dragon to great fury.

Though Britain is no longer the governing power there, it is quite possible the same course of events may develop. "All nations must be gathered against JERUSALEM to battle" (Zech. 14 :2). This is before Christ reveals himself to the Jews as their rejected Messiah and takes possession of Jerusalem. Why then do the nations come against Jerusalem, if it is the New Arabian "Antichrist" they are enraged at?

It is possible that the Jews themselves, increasingly antagonized by the Papacy and Russia, will do what bro. Thomas expected Britain to do—clear the idols and idolators out of Jerusalem. They, too, will surely know of the New Arabian Power allied with their Tarshish friends and protectors, and while they will not know or believe it is the Christ they crucified two thousand years ago, they will be aware it is both friendly and powerful.



I look forward in the coming days, Yahweh Willing, to developing the defense that Britain is Tarshish for a number of very relevant reasons.

In the meantime, I challenge anyone to take the 21 points referred to in the 1860 Herald Article and show me how all 21 points could possibly apply to the US!
JimPhillips

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Reply with quote  #35 

Here are the 21 points bro. Stephen referenced.  All 21 points at one time referred to Britain.  Of course no one could seriously state this to be the case today.  Equally obvious, not all apply to the US, though 19 of the 21 can be said to apply more perfectly to the US than to Britain.  And cetainly all the main or measurable ones.
 
1. Tyre was the mart of the nations; so is Britain;
2. Tyre was the mighty fortress of the sea; so is Britain;
3. Tyre’s merchants were princes, and her traders nobles of the land; so are Britain’s; being, as the French say, “A nation of shopkeepers.”
4. Tyre was a Dispenser of Crowns; true also of Britain, as shown in her continental and Indian history.
5. Tyre was the daughter of Tarshish as well as of Sidon; so is Britain the daughter of Tarshish as well as of Tyre, and granddaughter of Sidon;
6. Tyre emigrated to, and, afterwards, beyond Chittim and beyond the sea of Tarshish, or Mediterranean, in and beyond which is now located the British power—the Ionian Islands, Malta, Gibraltar, and the British Isles;
7. Tyre was the stronghold of the ships of Tarshish, or ships trading to India and the coasts of the Mediterranean; so is Britain, pre-eminently;
8. Tyre played the harlot with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth; this is true of Britain in a greater degree than of Tyre in the most brilliant period of her career;
9. Tyre was strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, who spread their terror through all the inhabitants of the earth; Britain’s naval history shows that this is also true of her;
10. Tyre’s wise men were the pilots of her state; so of Britain’s, what is called “the Collective Wisdom” are the pilots and calkers who navigate the vessel, and stop the leaks;
11. The Tyrian and British trade are identical;
12. Tyre was the great workshop of her time; so is Britain;
13. Tyre was Queen of the Sea and military; so is Britain;
14. Tyre traded in slaves; so Britain, formerly to a great extent, and now in coolies;
15. Tyre’s chief trafficker was Tarshish; so is Britain’s;
16. Tyre boasted in the greatness of her wisdom, and her heart was lifted up because of her wealth; and she set her heart as a goddess, in the midst of the seas; this also is signally true of Britannia;
17. Tyre was a monarchy, whose king was bedizened with all the flashiness in which vain mortals delight; so is Britain—a commercial power tricked out in all the trappings of royalty;
18. Tyre ruled in Eden, the garden of God, and existed there at the time of her overthrow by Nebuchadnezzar; Britain’s influence is also in the ascendency there; and will yet rule there as potentially as Tyre; when the Russo-Assyrian, the Nebuchadnezzar of the latter days, shall confederate his forces to expel her from the land;
19. Tyre was a wide-spreading covering protector—a protecting power; the position of Britain, whose covering protectorate spreads throughout the earth;
20. Great wealth and prosperity filled Tyre with violence; and through the multitude of her iniquities by the unrighteousness of her traffic she prostituted her asylums; the same cause produces the same results in Britain; her factory system, unions, institutions, ecclesiastical merchandisings, supporting Mohammedanism, Hindooism, Popery, and so forth, for the sake of advantage—make the resemblance striking.
21. Tyre was a harlot; so is Britain; the Anglo-Hibernian daughter of Babylon, the mother of harlots, and of all the abominations of the earth.
In the English version, the Tyrian power is styled, “The Anointed Cherub that covereth.” The Hebrew of this is, Cheruv Mimshach hassokaik. The word Mimshach is there rendered anointed. If this be retained in regard to Tyre, it can only be in the sense of her being governed by a king, an official customarily an anointed person. But the word properly signifies extension, spreading out: — an “out” or wide-spreading cherub, is a rendering in accordance with Tyre’s out-spreading dominion over the sea. A Cherub that covereth, used in connection with a monarchy, is a phrase which indicates, that the monarchy is a protecting power. Hence, Cherub, in this place, signifies a guardian, warder, or protector. Hence, I have rendered the Hebrew by the phrase, “A wide-spreading covering protector.” Nebuchadnezzar was the jailer of nations; and Tyre the maritime protector of peoples; which is the relative position of Gog and the Daughter of Tyre in the fulness of Gentile times.
JimPhillips

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Reply with quote  #36 

Hello bro. Stephen, and thank you for your thoughts.  I did know you were out of town, as I read it in an email between our sister-wives.

 

Quote:

THERE MUST BE A TARSHISH POWER PROTECTING THE LAND

Bro. Thomas, writing over fifty years before Britain liberated and occupied Palestine, expected Britain to still be in control of that land when these things were happening. He did not foresee the further development of Britain's removal and Jewish independence. He knew from Ezekiel 38:13 that there must be a Tarshish power affording protection, and that Israel herself must be (v. 11)—

"Dwelling safely; without walls, bars, or gates."

 

I agree with bro. Growcott's understanding of bro. Thomas's exposition.  Bro. Thomas taught that at the time of the end, there must be a Tarshish.  That Tarshish power must spread her wings over Israel.  That Tarshish power must be the power that Israel looks to for her covering, to dwell in unwalled villages.  

 

In the days of bro. Thomas, Britain had both the capability and motivation to provide this.  Today, the US alone, has the capability and motivation to provide this.

 

You will note that bro. Growcott said that bro. Thomas did not foresee a time when the Tarshish power would retreat from the land, and Israel stand independent.

 

This is my point.  Those who take the position that Britain is still Tarshish, as bro. Growcott did, must separate themselves from the exposition of bro. Thomas.  Because as bro. Growcott correctly noted, bro. Thomas' exposition does not foresee a time when Tarshish retreats from the Holy land.

 

And historically, since Britain became the anointed cherub which covered Israel, Israel has never lacked for a covering cherub to this day.  The flags on the covering-vessels have changed, but the Tarshish-cherub has always been there.

 

Jim

STEVEPHS

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First part of the case to be presented in the coming days: -

Quote:

Ezekiel 27

1  The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2  Now, thou son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyrus;

3  And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

4  Thy borders are in the midst of the seas, thy builders have perfected thy beauty.

5  They have made all thy ship boards of fir trees of Senir: they have taken cedars from Lebanon to make masts for thee.

6  Of the oaks of Bashan have they made thine oars; the company of the Ashurites have made thy benches of ivory, brought out of the isles of Chittim.

7  Fine linen with broidered work from Egypt was that which thou spreadest forth to be thy sail; blue and purple from the isles of Elishah was that which covered thee.

8  The inhabitants of Zidon and Arvad were thy mariners: thy wise men, O Tyrus, that were in thee, were thy pilots.

9  The ancients of Gebal and the wise men thereof were in thee thy calkers: all the ships of the sea with their mariners were in thee to occupy thy merchandise.

10  They of Persia and of Lud and of Phut were in thine army, thy men of war: they hanged the shield and helmet in thee; they set forth thy comeliness.

11  The men of Arvad with thine army were upon thy walls round about, and the Gammadims were in thy towers: they hanged their shields upon thy walls round about; they have made thy beauty perfect.

12  Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all kind of riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs.

We know that the capital of the land of Tyre was Phonecia.  Tyre dominated the merchant world in the millennium prior to Christ.    It was noted as being a “trading” nation and from verse 12 we see the trading connection with Tarshish, the land of tin.    We know historically that tin was not readily available in any of the middle eastern countries at that time, and much was done with copper, the metal weapons were constructed of in those days.   Copper is a soft metal and it needs to be combined with somthing like tin for it to be of any use, hence the reason why tin was in high demand.   It was imported from places such as the Cornish coast which was kept a secret.  Ships were lost in the desparate attempt of nations such as Greece to spy out where the tin was coming from.

In early Christadelphian writings, there were some very interesting articles on the identification of Tarshish with the land of Britain: -
 
Quote:

“But there is another element in the case that is decisive, and that is the word “Tarshish”.  I might have said that the phrase “the islands of the sea” show it to be Great Britian, because there is no other nation that is an island nation but ourselves.

TARSHISH

Well, how do we apply this to England?   By process of argument arising out of Ezekiel 27 v 12.   This chapter is an address to ancient Tyre, the capital of Phoenicia, the Britain of ancient days – I mean the power that in the ancient world fulfilled the part of England in conducting the traffic of the sea and the business of the world in general.  There is here a description of the various markets that were open to her, and the various countries that traded with her, and in this passage we read: “Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all kinds of riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs.”   Now, tin was derived from but one source in those days.   The question is:  what source was that?   Whence was the tin derived that was supplied to the markets of Phoenicia or Tyre and distributed through the world?

That is a matter of historical enquiry, and I may say, without going round and about, that classic investigation wil show that the British Islands were the source from which Phoenician merchants brought the tin that was sold in the Tyrian market and supplied to all the military nations for the alloy in the manufacture of their military and other implements.  There was no other known source of supply at the time.   The Greeks tried to find out the secret in vain.  Herodotus, who speaks of the Phoenician ships being chased and rather suffering themselves to be wrecked than disclose the secret.   The very name Britain shows it, for you find that in Welsh the word means “the land of metals” and that in the Phoenician, which is the source of the Welsh, for there can be no doubt that many of the names of capes, mountains, rivers, and so forth in Cornwall, Wales etc are Hebrew in form, because they are Syriac, which was allied to the Hebrew, and they are Syriac, because the Phoenciains from Syria were the first trading settlers in the southern parts of Britain, as the extinct mines in Cornwall bear witness to this day.   You find the Phoenician called these Islands Baratanac, which came, in the course of ages, to be pronounced Britainic, and gradually softened to Britain.

“The merchants of Tarshish and all the young lions thereof” were to antagonize Gog, in the latter days.  Are we (i.e the British) merchants?  Yes.   Do lions answer to our political heraldry?  Yes; the young lions rampant are the arms of our royal house; and the great lion, the standard of our political constitution.


 
To be continued Yahweh Willing .....
STEVEPHS

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Reply with quote  #38 
Continued ....

Quote:


THE SHIPS OF TARSHISH

 

I must now ask:  As it is in the latter days that Israel’s regeneration is to be accomplished, what has England to do with it?   The answer to that is to be found in this fact, that when the time of restoration arrives, we find there isa certain power in the earth providentially made use of to co-operate in the work.  I will read the passages to which I refer, and then I will ask you to perceive, in the considerations I will suggest, their applicability to the nation of which we are a part (Britain).    Isaiah 60.   In Ezekiel we read “The Redeemer shall come to Zion”, and I may say that, in the 11th chapter of Romans, Paul quotes that as a prophecy unfulfilled in his day, which shows it cannot apply to the first coming of Christ, and must therefore apply to the second.  “The redeemer shall come”.  Following upon that there is this most glorious address to the house of Israel (Isaiah 60 v 1):  “Arise, thine, for thy light is come, and the glory of Yahweh is risen upon thee ... and the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising”; and it goes on to say in the 8th verse: “Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?  Surely THE ISLES shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of Yahweh thy Elohim, and to the Holy One of Israel, because He hath glorified thee.”

 

Isaiah 18:1 “Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia, that sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of – bulrushes we have here, but that is palpably a mistake, for vessels of bulrushes sent upon the mighty ocean would not long be vessels of any sort!  What should it be?  There are Hebraists who agree in saying that it means vessels with moving things, turning things – pointing to a peculiar form of vessels that should be used in the latter days:  “vessels of moving, turning, whirling things, upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers” – no ships were swift messengers until the steam marine of Great Britain came into existence – “to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!   All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.”

 

And then he proceeds to describe something that would be very intersting to follow, namely: the judgements that are to descend upon the ripened iniquity of the present generation.  But we pass on to the 7th verse:  “In that time shall the present be brought unto Yahweh of Armies of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of Yahweh of Armies, the Mount Zion.”

 

“SHIPS”, “SEA”, “ISLES”

 

“Send ambassadors by the sea”.   Does not this imply that it is an island-power?   France does not require to send her ambassadors by sea: she sends them by land to Vienna, to Berlin, to Madrid, to St Petersburgh, the only country where she has to use the sea is England, and she has to use English ships to do that.  “Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?  Surely THE ISLES shall wait for me”  Isaiah 60 v 8-9.    Are we not the only power having ships and Isles – the Islands of Great Britian?

 

Psalm 72 v 10  “The kings of Tarshish and of THE ISLES shall bring presents:  the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.

 

Isaiah 23 v 1-3  “The burden of Tyre, Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in:  from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them.   Be still, ye inhabitants of THE ISLE; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that PASS OVER THE SEA, have replenished.  And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, is her revenue; and she is a mart of nations”.

 

Other interesting references are:   Isaiah 23 v 1, 6, 7 and 12 and Psalm 45 which is a prohecy of Christ's marriage to his bride.    Tarshish will be there with a gift.

 



To be continued, Yahweh Willing ....
JimPhillips

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"But there is another element in the case that is decisive, and that is the word "Tarshish". I might have said that the phrase "the islands of the sea" show it to be Great Britian, because there is no other nation that is an island nation but ourselves.--Above Quote



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"Tarshish was, then, the second son of him [Javan]
from whom the Greeks descended. He was doubtless an important personage in the original settlement of the coasts, which are always colonized before the interior of new countries. Coasts and islands are represented by the same word in Hebrew." –John Thomas. CHDN. 1882, pg 145

JimPhillips

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Now, tin was derived from but one source in those days.   The question is:  what source was that?   Whence was the tin derived that was supplied to the markets of Phoenicia or Tyre and distributed through the world?

That is a matter of historical enquiry, and I may say, without going round and about, that classic investigation wil show that the British Islands were the source from which Phoenician merchants brought the tin that was sold in the Tyrian market and supplied to all the military nations for the alloy in the manufacture of their military and other implements.--Above Quote

 
 

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Ezekiel says, "Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs." These are products of the mines of Spain and Britain, which were brought to Tyre in "the ships of Tarshish," which, saith the prophet, "did sing of thee (Tyre) in thy market; and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas."--John Thomas  Chdn 1882,  pg 145 

STEVEPHS

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... Continued.

The advocates of the American Tarshish theory, nearly always base their idea on Tarshish being the wealthiest nation and the greatest Naval power in the earth.  Some real difficulties may lie ahead for these brethren if China or Russia occupied such a position.   It is absurd to base our ideas on the present position of nations, a premise which has led many to the incorrect idea that Russia can no longer be the King of the North in prophecy or indeed the Gog mentioned in Ezekiel 38 just because five years ago, Russia's economy seemed to be very weak.    Note from the following extract from Elpis Israel that without doubt, bro Thomas believed from a PROPHETICAL viewpoint that Britain was Tarshish for more reasons than wealth or naval force, although we know she was supreme also in that area in the days of bro Thomas.    Tarshish was a location, not a symbol or type, and nowhere in the doctors writings do we have a scrap of evidence to suggest that Tarshish was to remove from Britain and travel throughout the world depending on economic might.  

Quote:
 

The pre-adventual colonization of Palestine will be on purely political principles; and the Jewish colonists will return in unbelief of the Messiaship of Jesus, and of the truth as it is in him. They will emigrate thither as agriculturists and traders, in the hope of ultimately establishing their commonwealth, but more immediately of getting rich in silver and gold by commerce with India, and in cattle and goods by their industry at home under the efficient protection of the British power. And this their expectation will not be deceived; for, before Gogue invades their country, it is described by the prophet, as "a land of unwalled villages, whose inhabitants are at rest, and dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates; and possessed of silver and gold, cattle and goods, dwelling in the midst of the land" (Ezek. 38:11,12,13). Now any person acquainted with the present insecure condition of Palestine under the Ottoman dominion must be satisfied from the testimony, that some other power friendly to Israel must then have become paramount over the land, which is able to guarantee protection to them, and to put the surrounding, tribes in fear. This is all that is needed, namely, security for life, and property and Palestine would be as eligible for Jewish emigration as the United States have proved for the Gentiles.

But to what part of the world shall we look for a power whose interests will make it willing as it is able to plant the ensign of civilization upon the mountains of Israel? The reader will, doubtless, anticipate my reply from what has gone before. I know not whether the men, who at present contrive the foreign policy of Britain, entertain the idea of assuming the sovereignty of the Holy Land, and of promoting its colonization by the Jews; their present intentions, however, are of no importance one way or the other; because they will be compelled, by events soon to happen, to do what, under existing circumstances, heaven and earth combined could not move them to attempt. The present decisions of "statesmen" are destitute of stability. A shooting star in the political, firmament is sufficient to disturb all the forces of their system; and to stultify all the theories of their political astronomy. The finger of God has indicated a course to be pursued by Britain which cannot be evaded, and which her counselors will not only be willing, but eager, to adopt when the crisis comes upon them.

The decree has long since gone forth which calls upon the Lion of Tarshish to protect the Jews. Upwards of a thousand years before the British were a nation, the prophet addresses them as the power which at "evening-tide" should interest themselves in behalf of Israel. In view of this, "the time of the end," he says, "The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind;" or, as it is expressed by another, "and they became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them" (Dan. 2:35): "behold," says the former prophet, concerning Israel at this time, "at evening-tide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us" (Isaiah 17:14) -- referring, doubtless, to the overthrow and destruction of Gogue. Now, the invasion of their country by a spoiler at "evening-tide," who robs them, implies their previous return. This finished colonization Isaiah styles, "a present unto the Lord of hosts of a people scattered and peeled;" for, speaking of "the time of the end," he says, "In that time shall the present be brought unto the Lord of hosts of a people scattered and peeled * * * to the place of the name of the Lord of Hosts, the Mount Zion " (Isaiah 18:7). But, then, the question returns upon us, by whom is the present to be made? The prophet answers this question in the first verse, saying, "Ho! to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Khush: that sendeth by sea whirling things, even on vessels of fleetness upon the waters, Go ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from this and onward: a nation prostrate and trodden down, whose land the rivers (invading armies, Isaiah 8:7) have spoiled." Now, the geography of this passage points to the Lion-power of Tarshish as to "the land shadowing with wings." Taking Judea, where the prediction was delivered, as the place of departure, the word " "beyond" points to the east; that is, running a line from Judea across the Euphrates and Tigris, "the rivers of Khushistan," it passes into Hindostan, where "the Merchants of Tarshish, and its young lions," rule the land. But the British power is still further indicated by the insular position of its seat of government; for the "sending of fleet messengers by the sea." implies that the shadowing power is an island state. Ambassadors are sent from the residence of the Court, and if they proceed to their destination by sea, the throne of the power must be located in an island. The text, therefore, points to the north and east, to England and Hindostan, as the land shadowing Israel with its wings. To Britain, then, the prophet calls as the, protector of the Jewish nation in the evening-tide trouble, and commands it to send its messengers in swift vessels because the crisis is urgent, and to plant Israel as "an ensign upon the mountains" (Isaiah 18:3); as it is written in another place, saying, "The Lord shall set an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth" (Isaiah 11:12). When this is accomplished to the required extent it becomes a notable sign of the times.

 



The section quoted below indicates powerfully to us bro Thomas' conviction that 'present intentions' are irrelevant in the Divine scheme, and that nations are 'compelled' to do what Yahweh imposes upon them.

I know not whether the men, who at present contrive the foreign policy of Britain, entertain the idea of assuming the sovereignty of the Holy Land, and of promoting its colonization by the Jews; their present intentions, however, are of no importance one way or the other; because they will be compelled, by events soon to happen, to do what, under existing circumstances, heaven and earth combined could not move them to attempt.
 
Bro Thomas says that a 1,000 years before Britain existed as a nation her role was marked out and we know that so much of the role was fulfilled in prophetical terms in the 70 years succeeding bro Thomas's death.  Nowhere do we read that Tarshish (a place) was to remove to another place.   The identification markers for Britain being Tarshish are absolutely thrilling to consider.   An Island whose imports and exports are made by sea to the tune of 95% in the present day.   The very name of the country represented by the land of metal, the very trading symbols of old Tyre (Copper, Tin, Lead etc).   We have all of these wonderful identification tags to align us with the prophecies of Scripture, and now we are being told that the US, a non-Island, who has never been known throughout the developed world as trading in tin or lead, who has no identification markers whatsoever in this respect, has all of a sudden become the modern day Tarshish.  
 
It is perfectly fitting from a prophetical viewpoint for the US to be one of young lions.   The young lions are there in total support of the lion and certainly must be well equipped to offer this. 
 
To be continued, Yahweh Willing.
broBW

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The advocates of the American Tarshish theory, nearly always base their idea on Tarshish being the wealthiest nation and the greatest Naval power in the earth.  Some real difficulties may lie ahead for these brethren if China or Russia occupied such a position. -Stephen


Thank you for good points. I am  reading what both you and Jim are saying and trying to make some decisions. So do not take this necessarily as a challenge to your position - instead, perhaps something for you to address if you wish:

(1) In the prophetical scheme of things, is not China irrelevant? She's not even in the picture or alignment of nations (i.e. neither the Image nor the Tarshish group),  and so is the size of her navy - whether small or large -  not moot?  How, therefore, could this be a potential problem for American-Tarshish advocates?

(2) Notwithstanding how large the Russian naval force may become,  is it not moot to suggest that the American-Tarshish advocates have a problem here as well?  Do not the ships of Tarshish bring the children of Israel to the Land under Yahshua the King (Isa. 60)? Clearly, Russia cannot be in this prophetical picture.

STEVEPHS

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Hi Bro Bob,

Thanks for the post back.

I hope sis Mary and yourself are well.

My comments regarding China and Russia were purely on the basis that economists predict that in the next fifty years, both will become super-powers, so I used those two countires in the sense that it is possible that one or both of them could out-strip the US in terms of GDP and economic growth.   I was not relating those nations to prophecy, just purely pointing out that just because US is the super power of the world today with the greatest navy, doesn't mean to say they will remain in this super-power position, and if these two are the greatest tests in any given day for us to indentify Tarshish, then what happens in 10 years (if the Master remained away) if China's economy and might outgrew the US which is quite possible?   How is the US any more a part of prophecy than China, with the excpetion that Christadelphians from the days of the Pioneer's have gone along with the notion that the US is a fitting young Lion.

I have searched for any hint from the writings of bro Thomas that he may suggest that Tarshish was a moving power.  I have failed to find anything even hinting at the notion.    When you survey the early writings of Christadelphians (Thomas, Roberts, Sulley) their reasons for aligning Britain with Tarshish was seven-fold.   Bro Sulley especially writes some very interesting articles on this subject.    Bro Growcott clearly could see Britain's power in the world in decline in his day, by which time the US economy and naval base was larger, and yet, he saw this activity as the activity of the US role of a young lion in support of Tarshish.

On the world scene, things can change overnight or certainly in a small amount of time.  

Concerning Russia's role, I think bro Growcott's article is interesting: -

Quote:

It is clear from both prophecy and the present world picture before our eyes that Russia will be the leader and master of this latter day crusade against Jerusalem. It is clear today that Russia's path to its long-coveted control of the world and remolding it to a manmade millennium, lies through the Mideast. And it is clear that Israel is the great stumbling block there, like Mordecai sitting in the gate of the King. Tarshish opposes the invaders—

"Art thou come to take a spoil?" (Eze. 38:13).

but is overwhelmed and driven back across the Jordan into Edom, Moab and Ammon, while Russia and her allies sweep on into Egypt (Dan. 11:41-43).

CHRIST BRINGS A REMNANT OF ISRAEL FROM EGYPT

It is at this point that bro. Thomas believes the requirements of various prophecies necessitate the fitting in of a descent into Egypt by Christ, to deliver and bring out the Jews that are there—to bring them, as an earnest of the whole nation, again through the Red Sea and into the Covenant. 

In the meantime, Jerusalem is captured by the invader, and its people are in the process of deportation into captivity (Zech. 14:2). In World War II, both Germany and Russia shifted around great masses of captive people like cattle—to death camps, to slave labor projects, or simply relocated them—to suit their own political ends.

JACOB'S LAST AND WORST "TIME OF TROUBLE"

Today Russia and the Arabs and the Papacy denounce the nation of Israel as usurpers of Arab lands, and it is clear their first step as soon as they were able would be to destroy or deport them, so Zechariah 14:2 and 13:8 are right in line with the present picture and probabilities.



In other fellowships, the same group of American-Tarshish supporters are the same group who have evolved the idea that the Arabs are the people to conquer Israel at the time of the end!   Why?   Because they are aligning present day events and economic positions with how things will unfold prior to Armageddon.    If we consider carefully how the world has changed in the last 10 years alone with China and India emerging as economic giants, together with Russia regaining her strength, then who knows what will happen on the world scene tomorrow and the next day, never mind 5 years, 10 years and so on.


STEVEPHS

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Bro Henry Sulley points out in the following article that Tarshish was a place and offers some very solid evidence for Britain being Tarshish.   Again, there was no expectation (in 1908 when this was written) for Tarshish to remove to another place.

Quote:

 

 

In a like manner, then, the presence in the Hebrew Bible of words of Tamil origin seems to settle the question as to the locality of Tarshish, and to justify the conclusion that India, the brightest jewel in the British imperial crown, is the ancient Tarshish to which Solomon's ships went.   But there was a country called Tarshish west of the Holy Land. The Prophet Jonah some 850 years B.C. embarked at Joppa, now Jaffa, on the Mediterranean, in a ship going to Tarshish. Thus in the third verse of the first chapter of the Prophecy of Jonah we read :—

 

He "rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, and went down to Joppa ; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it."  Some three centuries later we hear of Tarshish as an important country possessing ships, and supplying the then civilised world with certain mineral products for which Britain is even to-day famous. Thus we read respecting Tyre:—

 

"Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all kinds of riches ; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs " (Ezekiel xxvii. 12).   "Ships of Tarshish did sing of thee [Tyre] in thy market" {ibid., verse 25).

 

Some have erroneously supposed that * Tartessus which is identical with the modern Gibraltar, in Spain, was ancient western Tarshish. Such cannot have been the case, for "This Tarshish," as before stated, was a country, not a city, and important enough to be mentioned by Ezekiel as trading with Tyre in the same category as Persia, eshech, Tubal, Judea, Dedan, and Sheba. Then there is no evidence of the existence of a district called Tarshish in Spain, famous for the products mentioned by Ezekiel. Tin is not found in Spain. Yet from the earliest times the Phoenicians traded in western countries, i.e. islands,, beyond the Straits of Gibraltar, or " Pillars of Hercules," as they were then called, as the following extract shows :—

 

" The great centre of the Phoenicians' colonisation was the western half of the Mediterranean.  . . . Next the Phoenicians ventured further on the ocean, and drew tin . from the mines of North-West Spain [?] or the richer deposits of Cornwall, . . . and the tin islands [Cassiterides]. The . tin was supposed to be produced where it was exchanged, in this case Tartessus, a very common case with the Phoenicians, . . . who concealed the source of their precious wares." .(Ency. BriL, vol. xviii. p. 806.)

 

Now the products mentioned as coming from Tarshish are also said to come from the Cassiterides of the Greeks. It has been suggested that the Cassiterides or Tin Islands were the Scilly Isles; but when it is noted that the area of the Scilly Isles is only about 3980 acres, and the population 1974 in the year 1901, it must be admitted that the Scilly Isles do not sufficiently answer the important place which this Western Tarshish occupied in the ancient maritime world. We  must look for a country sufficiently powerful and important to be able to despatch ships to, the ancient city of Tyre. We have this in Great Britain, which includes the Scilly Isles.

 

The following quotations from the Encyclopedia Britannica indicate that the " Tin Islands" were the British Isles:—

 

" The chief mineral productions of Cornwall, considered as objects of trade, are tin and copper; the former being found nowhere in the United Kingdom except in Cornwall and Devon.   "The tin of Cornwall has, been known and worked from a period long before the dawn of certain history ... "There can be no doubt that Cornwall and Devonshire are referred to under the general name of Cassiterides, or the 'Tin Islands.'    "We know that the tin of the district was largely exported from a very early period, and that the mines were still worked under the Romans."

 

BRITANNIA.—The history of Britain begins with the invasion of Julius Ceasar, 55 B.C. Ceasar is their first Roman writer who mentions Britain ; before him we have only a few short notices in Greek writers, who appear to have known but little about the-country. The earliest notice of Britain is in Herodotus [450 B.a],.who mentions the Tin Islands, only to confess his ignorance, about them. By the Tin Islands are probably to be understood only the Scilly Isles and Cornwall, .which are said to have been known to Phoenician traders some centuries before the Christian era. More important is a passage in Aristotle, who, writing a century later than Herodotus, is the earliest writer who mentions the British Isles by name. The passage is in the De Mundox c. 3; 'Beyond, the Pillars of Hercules [Straits, of Gibraltar] the ocean flows round the earth, and in it are two very large islands called British—Albion and Ierne—lying beyond the Keltoi.' .

 

 

 


JimPhillips

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Hello bro. Steve,

And thank you for your thoughts. This post will be mostly concerned with the historical location of Tarshish. This seems to me to be the root of your argument. I will deal with the rest of your points, in future posts.

My prophetic exposition that the modern Tarshish is the US, is based on every aspect of the prophetic definition of who Tarshish will be at the time of the end, as explained by bro. Thomas.  If you don't believe that the US is the modern Tarshish, you will find bro. Thomas' exposition off base.  You will struggle with bro. Thomas' explanation that Tyre/Tarshish will be the richest nation, greatest trading nation, greatest Naval power, and protector of Israel.  These things are measurable, and the lead the US currently enjoys on every nation in the world pertaining to these things is, at least in the short term, insurmountable.

I am aware, as you pointed out to bro. Bob, that certain brethren cannot understand the prophetic difference between the ancient nations, and the modern states who, at the time of the end, dominate those ancient locations. To this point, bro. Roberts once remarked:

Quote:
The literal Babylon of ancient history has given place to the modern Babylon of apocalyptic Roman history; and so also with ancient Tyre, Tarshish, Edom, Moab, Sheba, and Dedan, who have (or will have yet) their modern representative in Britain, the great maritime and commercial power of the world, upon whose finally Alexandrian domains the sun never sets.–Chdn. 1889, pg 39

Note what bro. Roberts says here. We cannot presume the modern Tyre/Tarshish to be represented by their ancient location, but must understand the latter day Tyre/Tarshish will be the modern nation who dominates the ancient Tyre/Tarshish location, and has the same characteristics of that city-state, which bro. Roberts lists as "the great maritime and commercial power of the world." Note the contrast bro. Roberts draws between the ancient Tyre/Tarshish and the modern Tyre/Tarshish. Note that Britain is the modern Tyre/Tarshish, not the ancient Tyre/Tarshish, in bro. Roberts’ exposition. My exposition is upon the same principle as that employed by bro. Roberts, here.

Britain had not, in bro. Roberts’ day, fulfilled the prophecy. She was part way there. She was the greatest naval power, the richest nation, and the greatest trading nation. And she was dabbling in Israel. Being familiar with prophecy and bro. Thomas’ exposition of it, bro. Roberts had no doubt that as the Tarshish nation, she had not only to maintain her ascendancy, but become more involved in the Middle East. These are simply prerequisites for the events at the time of the end. That is why he said "who have, (or will have yet.)" in referencing Britain’s role as Tarshish.

This is why your arguments pertaining to China and Russia are beside the point. At the time of the end, there must be a Tarshish nation, regardless of what flag is flown on its vessels. That nation will have the characteristics listed by bro. Thomas. That Tarshish state will be the richest nation, the greatest trading nation, the King of the Sea, and the protector of Israel. It simply cannot happen any other way, without the prophesy having failed.

You say that I hold on to certain facts like Tarshish is the worlds richest nation, greatest trading nation, greatest navy, and protector of Israel to show that the US is Tarshish. I’m not sure I understand the complaint. These are the clues bro. Thomas derived from the Scriptures which explains to us, who is Tarshish. Why should we abandon them, in favor of clues bro. Thomas never gave–Britain is the ancient Tarshish, the land of tin, the island nation? I’ve not yet figured out why you discount bro. Thomas’ exposition in favor of arguments he never made.

I know you would not disagree with bro. Roberts that prophetic Babylon has changed from the city in Iraq to the city in Mosc who ultimately will dominate that Iraqi city. But you do disagree with him that ancient Tarshish must be similarly represented by a nation who has the control and characteristics of the ancient namesake. You rather make the point that because once, nearly 70 years ago, Britain held sway in that region, and at that time had the Tyre/Tarshish characteristics, that she now forever holds that position, in spite of having lost all activity in the region and all the Tarshish/Tyrian characteristics, and in spite of her betrayal of God’s people–the very people she was especially chosen to protect. In this, you go away from the foundation of bro. Thomas’ exposition for no good reason I can think of.

The predictions bro. Thomas made concerning Britain, and which you list, are based first, upon these foundation points, and second, that he anticipated Christ’s return in his lifetime. He expected the return of Christ circa 1867. He saw that the nation who then filled the role of Tarshish in that time frame, could only be Britain. Therefore, he stated things like:

Quote:
"The decree has long since gone forth which calls upon the Lion of Tarshish to protect the Jews. Upwards of a thousand years before the British were a nation, the prophet addresses them as the power which at "evening-tide" should interest themselves in behalf of Israel.

This conclusion by bro. Thomas is not based on some Scriptural reference directed to Britain such as the one you suggest, ie. Britain is the ancient Tarshish. Bro. Thomas never believed that, he lists no such reference that would support this, and we all know that there is no such reference. His conclusion is based upon the fact that there has to be a Tarshish nation at the time of the end, he believed he was in the time of the end. The inevitable conclusion was that Britain was that nation. Therefore, it was also inevitable that she fulfill that role, which included spreading her protective wings over Israel.

The earliest ancient location of the Tarshish nation was not Britain, but Sidon. We know this, as Tyre is said to be the daughter of Tarshish (Isa. 23:10,) and the daughter of Sidon (Isa. 23:12). Another Scriptural location of Tarshish was Italy. When Tyre was said to pass over to Tarshish (Isa. 23:6,) we know from ancient historians that they abandoned their island city in the face of the Babylonians, to sail to Italy, most likely Sicily.

Your position that Tarshish was Britain, and cannot move, is not the position of bro. Thomas. You presented your argument in the negative.

Quote:
Tarshish was a location, not a symbol or type, and nowhere in the doctors writings do we have a scrap of evidence to suggest that Tarshish was to remove from Britain and travel throughout the world depending on economic might.

I will take that as proof that you cannot ever find bro. Thomas identifying Britain solely as the ancient Tarshish, or even solely as the ancient western Tarshish. His position was that Tarshish, the man, had sons who moved and migrated west and north west of Tyre throughout the Mediterranean and beyond. He recognized that wherever these men established a colony, they took the name Tarshish. Hence there were so many industrious and enterprising Tarshish locations, that the Mediterranean was named the Sea of Tarshish. Here is his explanation of Tarshish:

Quote:
Tarshish was, then, the second son of him from whom the Greeks descended. He was doubtless an important personage in the original settlement of the coasts, which are always colonized before the interior of new countries. Coasts and islands are represented by the same word in Hebrew. Javan is in opposition with "the isles afar off," in the last chapter of Isaiah. His descendants are a maritime people to this day, inhabiting the isles and coasts of the Archipelago, &c. The Javanese settled the coasts of the Mediterranean, the Adriactic, and the Atlantic region above the Straits of Gibraltar. It is to be expected, therefore, that the settlements would be originally named after their patriarchs, namely, "Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim." The Mediterranean was named the Sea of Tarshish, because, it is probable, his settlements were more commercial and enterprising than those of his other brethren. The southern coast of Spain, abutting both on the Atlantic and Mediterranean, is considered as peculiarly his. One of his Atlantic settlements was called Tartessus, or, as it occurs in Polybius and Stephanus Byzantinus, Tarseïon. Tartessus is probably a contraction for Tarsou nasos, Tarshish’s Island, for Tartessus was originally an island formed by the two mouths of the Bœtis, or Guadalquiver, and the Atlantic: one of the channels is dried up, so that it is now a part of the peninsula.

Having arrived at the westernmost coasts from Ararat, the sons of Tarshih would extend settlements where-ever the land line would indicate. Following this in a northerly direction, it would at last lead them in view of Britain, along whose southern coast they might spread themselves to the Land’s End, a part of the island abounding in tin. These Spanish and British coasts are indicated as the settlement of Tarshish, or some of "the isles," or coasts, "afar off," by the articles they brought for sale at the Tyrian fairs. Addressing himself to Tyre, a famous city on the coast of the Holy Land, and styled by Isaiah "the mart of nations," Ezekiel says, "Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs." These are products of the mines of Spain and Britain, which were brought to Tyre in "the ships of Tarshish," which, saith the prophet, "did sing of thee (Tyre) in thy market; and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas." From this it appears that the Tarshish branch of the Javanese had become an eminently maritime and commercial people of the west and north-west from Tyre. "Silver spread into plates," says Jeremiah, "is brought from Tarshish;" and he adds, "and gold from Uphaz," or Ophir. Tyre was the strength of Tarshish, for it was by the Tyrian trade that Tarshish maintained its maritime ascendancy. Tyre was the mart for the products of the coasts and isles afar off brought in the ships of Tarshish; hence as a commercial city she is styled the "daughter of Tarshish." The relations between the coasts of the Tarshish people and the city of Tyre were very profitable and intimate. The rejoicing between the two was reciprocal; for Tyre sang as a harlot, and the mariners from Tarshish sang the praises of the customer that enriched them. –John Thomas, CHDN 1882, pg. 145

There is much in here directly to the quotes you have presented. You quote bro. Sulley making the argument that Britain alone, is Tarshish. Bro. Thomas says wherever these men made settlements, their descendants bore their name, and that was Tarshish. You quote from bro. Sulley that Spain was not Tarshish. Bro. Thomas says it was "peculiarly so" meaning that of all the Tarshish settlements in and around the Mediterranean which would have born the name Tarshish (and there were many,) Spain is the most identifiable Tarshish. Bro. Sulley says that Tartessus was not an island. Bro. Thomas (and ancient historians) say it was, though it doesn’t really matter, as coasts and islands represent the same thing. Bro. Sulley says there was no tin there. Bro. Thomas and ancient historians say there was.

That brethren understood that there were many Tarshish states is obvious from the following article in the Christadelphian:

Quote:
Britain, without doubt, will colonise Palestine, as having a political interest therein. Isaiah says, at chap. 40:9., ‘Surely the Isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the Lord thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because He hath glorified thee." Here again is a maritime power, styled Tarshish. There are several Tarshishes mentioned in Scripture, and it is remarkable that two of them, Tarshish of the East, or West, both apply to Great Britain. At this very time, our sappers and miners, under the skilful direction of Captain Warren, are deep among the foundations of the Temple built by Solomon, ‘taking pleasure in her stones, and favouring the dust thereof.’ Britain does not think £5,000 per annum too much to contribute to the Palestine Exploration Fund. Britain, in fact, is secretly impelled by an overruling impulse to move in the direction pointed out by the prophets of Israel to do things which must be done, in order to bring about that which is predetermined." CHDN 1873, pg 306

As the brother wrote, there are several locations around the Mediterranean which were Biblically, and I would add, historically called "Tarshish," (by ancient historians Herodotus, Strabo, Pliny the Elder, and Josephus) The Christadelphian Magazine at one time or another lists them all. This would include (but not be limited to) Sidon, Crete, Carthage, Sicily, Gibraltar, Spain, and Portugal. Even the Mediterranean Sea itself, was historically referred to as Tarshish, or the Sea of Tarshish. England is not a nation ever historically referred to as Tarshish by ancient historians.

Since it is clear that Tarshish (the family) migrated north and west from Tyre, and that wherever they were, they were Tarshish; how can we say that Tarshish does not move?

Please don’t misunderstand me here. I agree that Britain was among the nations the Bible would have called Tarshish. My disagreement is that Britain is the specific nation referenced by that name, as it is never historically referred to as Tarshish. Nor does bro. Thomas ever recognize it as the only area indicated by the name Tarshish.

Finally to the point of Tarshish not being a single identifiable place, but rather the nation which has the greatest merchant/naval power, note again from the second paragraph in bro. Thomas’ quote. "it was by the Tyrian trade that Tarshish maintained its maritime ascendancy." Now I know you would not deny that bro. Thomas did believe that Tyre migrated west. Since, according ot bro. Thomas, it was through Tyre that Tarshish maintained its maritime power, how could it be that Tyre should move, and not take Tarshish with it. The two are intimately related, as cause to effect.

Jim
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