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JimPhillips

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In the days when Britain was clearly Tyre, the richest nation, greatest nation, with the greatest navy in the world, it was common among the brethren to believe that a Queen had to be in power at the time of the end to represent the "daughter" in the expression "daughter of Tyre."

I have never been fully convinced of this necessity, but I must confess that due to this expression, it has been very easy for me to refrain from any criticism of Senator Hillary Clinton, who looked for awhile, to be in line for the Presidency of the United States, today's Tyre.  In fact, it is still amazing to me, to see what happened to her in the Democratic primaries.  It was truly a case of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.  To me, it was a clear testimony that God rules in the kingdoms of men, because there is no way she should have lost.  Her supporters, becoming so confident in her victory, voted in the Republican primaries for John McCain, hoping to pick a weak Republican to run against her, and ended up costing her the nomination.  Polls today still show she would easily be America's pick for President against either of the candidates.

But now onto the political stage springs Alaskan Governor Sarah Palin like a shooting star.  Here is a woman who looks much more the part of Tyre's daughter.  She is opposed to abortion in all its forms, supports teaching creation in schools, opposes dignifying homosexuality with marriage licenses.  Supports an unwavering defense of Israel.  Supports a powerful and intervening American military.  And wishes to free the US from its oil reliance on hostile Arab states.  Her religious background is Assembly of God.  That would be an evangelical fundamentalist type of religion.  (Yeah, rapture, I know.  Could be the fly in this ointment.)

I have no idea what will happen in the US election.  I believe it will be decided by world events, brought on by God for His purpose.  An economic crash would favor Senator Obama.  A military crisis would favor Senator McCain.  Any scandal coming to light in this short election season, would work hard against either candidate.  The election is too close for anyone to claim to be able to call, at this point.

Governor Palin is a true conservative, from her roots up.  She already is being likened to "the Iron Lady" former British Prime Minister Margarete Thatcher.  She is already being embraced by the American Right as the next (former President) Ronald Reagan, for her ability to bypass the American press.  Even a Senator Obama victory may not take her off the political stage, as I have read and heard many Conservatives say that the US "had to go through a Jimmy Carter, to get to a Ronald Reagan."  Their implication being that the economic trials the US experienced under President Carter, led the US back to its conservative roots under President Ronald Reagan. 

Now whether any of that is true or not, it shows that Governor Sarah Palin is in position to come into power, either now behind a very old, four time cancer survivor in Senator John McCain; or in four more years, should the efforts to lead the US more towards a European style socialism by Senator Obama, fail.  So clearly, there is a woman poised for such a role.  I wonder if those who read this board have any opinion on the expression "daughter of Tyre" as it refers to a woman leader?
JimPhillips

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A sister wrote to me:
 
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Wasn't exactly sure "when" you were advocating she would be there.
 
It looks very possible to me that a woman president (or vice-president) may fill the bill when Christ is King.  But then how would that fit it with Chirst as power over the earth?  I'm not forming my opinion or view very well. Guess what I'm saying is that I'd always thought once Christ was King there wouldn't be other "kings and queens and primeministers, and presidents.
 
This Psalm is most definitely speaking of the Kingdom, is it not?  (Also of Solomon's time)
 
I didn't "reply" on line, because I don't think that would be right for me to do.  
 
Am really enjoying reading all the discussions.
 
The time frame for the complete fulfillment of this verse appears to me to be after Gog has been defeated, when Christ is in control in Jerusalem.  I believe this will be during the period we would typically all the mid-heaven proclamation. 
 
Quote:
Isa 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

 
Tarshish who is also the daughter of Tyre, will bring the gift from Tyre.  And note the phrase that the ships of Tarshish are first to serve the new King.  
 
The representative from Tyre is called "a daughter" not a queen.  The queen in this chapter (Psa 45) is the Bride of Christ.
 

 
 
JimPhillips

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A CBS writer presented this headline: 
Quote:
The Sarah Palin Phenomenon Is Doomed

MarketWatch Columnist Jon Friedman Warns The Media Live To Build You Up, Then Knock You Down


During her first interview with a hostile press, Governor Palin was asked if she felt she was qualified to be the vice president, to which she answered "yes."  The ABC reporter, Charles Gibson, then asked her if her answer didn't require a lot of "hubris." 

I suggest that it did not require nearly the "hubris" of this CBS reporter, who argues that it is the press which built her up, and the press will now take her down. 

The press has had nothing to do with the success of Governor Palin.  In fact, the mainstream press has done nothing but attack her since she was announced as Senator John McCain's running mate.  They sent 30 lawyers to the little town of Wasilla Alaska (population 9,000) to do nothing but dig up unpleasant instances in Governor Palin's past, and to this point, their greatest expose, run in the New York Times this past Sunday, was that after elected Governor, she elevated her supporters, and marginalized her opponents.  Imagine a politician doing that! 

FoxNews commentator Bill O'Reilly had the best summary of the matter.  He highlighted the New York Times, Sunday, Sept 14, which ran five stories on Governor Palin, all of them quite critical, (to be kind to the Times.)  There were no positive articles about her.  Commenting about the New York Times' true agenda, O'Reilly said:
Quote:

The New York Times fears a return of traditional principles.  If Palin catches on, the secular world the Times espouses takes a hit.


The CBS writer responsible for this headline says:
Quote:

The interview with Gibson may be remembered as the first brick being pulled out of the wall. The reviews weren't favorable from the media in the segments when Gibson asked Palin questions about foreign policy.

For instance, the New York Times called the exchange "strained." The Washington Post-owned Slate went so far as to say that "The ABC News anchor flummoxes the GOP amateur."

I'll be interested to see how Palin -- not to mention McCain and the Republican campaign machine -- reacts when the media's disillusionment sets in for real. Their actions may determine the course of the 2008 race.



Now, that is hubris.  Whether it is correct or not, time will tell, but it is definitely hubris for the press to say they control the outcome of the Presidential race.  This reporter pronounces Governor Palin lacking, the New york Times agrees, so to the press the matter is ended there.

But to me, it will be more interesting to see if this woman who can speak so eloquently of American traditional values, which are generally speaking Scriptural values, will be shouted down by the main stream media; or if she will be one of those rare politicians who has confidence in the American people to see through the barrage of hit pieces which greet her daily and carry her message of moral reform to Washington, a la Ronald Reagan.

The Ships of Tarshish will be there first.  The daughter of Tarshish will be there with a gift.  There has to be a reason for the favored status of the Tarshish nation, as Christ sets up his kingdom.  The protection of Israel is one of those reasons.  A return to Biblical values would be a nice bonus, especially for those of us living here.`
broBW

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Quote:
I wonder if those who read this board have any opinion on the expression "daughter of Tyre" as it refers to a woman leader?-JP


This passage comes to mind:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot."

Is there a future fulfillment for this? or is it past?
Eureka 3:409 (BE)
JimPhillips

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Of course this prophesy has been fulfilled in its primary application.  The end of the 70 years, was the end of Babylon's reign, and the uprising of the Persian power.  Tyre had been destroyed by Babylon, and with the destruction of Babylon, and the freeing of the peoples of the world by Cyrus; Tyre was rebuilt and sang like a harlot, in establishing trade with every nation in the world.  She was then obliterated by Alexander.
 
Is there a secondary fulfillment?  There almost always is.  But the secondary must follow the same lines of the primary, which means the antitypical Tyre will be destroyed by the antitypical Nebuchadnezzar (Russia) and restored to her trading status (but not military status) by the antitypical Cyrus (Christ.)
 
But that still doesn't address my question.  Does the expression "daughter of Tyre" or even "sing like an harlot" require that Tyre is lead by a woman at the time of the freeing of the world by that great emancipator, the greater than Cyrus?
 
As I said, I'm not at all convinced that this is the case, but I'm not so confident of that, that it does improve my manners, and my ability to conform to the Scriptural principle to "speak not evil of dignitaries" especially female dignitaries from the Tyrian Tarshish states.
broBW

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Reply with quote  #6 
Perhaps it is only used in the same sense as "daughter of Jerusalem," or "daughter of Zion."
shilohrb

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Reply with quote  #7 
What about her?
The main party in Israel’s governing coalition began choosing a new leader on Wednesday, and polls indicated that the winner will probably be the country’s foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, who says her goal is to form a new government without general elections and charge ahead on peace talks with the Palestinians.







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JimPhillips

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Reply with quote  #8 
Hello sis. Shiloh,

So good to see your input.

I saw
this about Tzipi Livni a few days ago.  She is an interesting person.  Israel's great woman leader (besides Deborah) was the woman from Milwaukee, (though born in Russia) Golda Meir.

The daughter of Tyre must come from Tyre.  For years, brethren felt that Christ must come while England still had a queen.  Perhaps the "Britian is still Tyre" crowd, still believes so.  The next British Monarch will be a king, to two generations.

But more than anything, Britain's diminished trading position, (now behind not only the US, but Germany, Japan, and soon China) makes her an unlikely Tyre.  The total US trade figures currently exceeds the entire British economy.  The US is easily the greatest trading nation in the world.
shilohrb

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Thanks, Bro. Jim.

I agree--Golda Meir was a great leader (and an interesting character). Raised $50 million here in the States (and flew in from Israel with only $10 in her purse!) to jump-start the State of Israel.  She was a very determined and admirable. I continuously marvel at the guts (and pigheadedness) of the Chosen People!

Well, I was taking off on what bro. Bob was saying about how this woman might be a "daughter of Zion" (or of Jerusalem--though did I misunderstand his statement?). Might be going too far out on a limb trying to put a woman leader in the picture (verse) you presented based on that assertion. It would be interesting to see more comments on this.

Speaking of Israel and woman leaders, Tzipi Livni IS quite the story. Doesn't appear to be too terribly polarizing (in a country that's wracked with political drama and characters); a centrist, if I'm understanding the Kadima Party stance correctly, though tilting to the left with her desire to design 2 states using pre-1967 lines and divvying up Jerusalem. She is a negotiator and a peacemaker, which is very interesting considering what we know about the end times.

I just read that the polls have closed and she's won (her party's seat) by 4.2% (per the Jerusalem Post); her opponent is demanding a recount, though, as that's considered too close to call--a very familiar scene in politics nowadays, yes?


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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Well, I was taking off on what bro. Bob was saying about how this woman might be a "daughter of Zion" (or of Jerusalem).


Hi sis Shiloh:

I probably wasn't very clear on this. What I meant was that "daughter of Tyre" might be used in the same sense as "daughter of Jerusalem," as in a figure of speech - not that the daughter of Tyre might, "herself,"  be a daughter of Jerusalem.

shilohrb

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Hi Bro. Bob,
Yes--I had a "wait a minute" moment awhile ago and edited my previous comment to include a "unless I misunderstand" parenthetical--thanks for clarifying. Which pretty much makes my guess not at all applicable to the verse...though I'm thinking that Ms. Livni's potential ascension in Israeli politics is pretty interesting in and of itself!

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While this might, should be another thread, the problem Kadina and therefore Ms. Livni will have, is Jerusalem.  How do you get peace with the Palestinians, (her goal) without giving up Jerusalem?  PM Ehud Barak, in the final days of the President Clinton administration had agreed to divide Jerusalem with Fatah, led then by Yassir Arafat.  I have no doubt that this would have collapsed the Labor Party at that time.  That Arafat refused the compromise was the only thing that saved him--till the scheduled election where he was soundly defeated by Likud.
 
Ms. Livni will now have a little over a month to put together her coalition, which will enable her to become Prime Minister and serve out former PM Olmert's term.  If she cannot do so, she will face a general election, and former PM Be Be Netanyahu, from Likud.
 
Both appear to be equally popular in Israel.  Like the current American election, this one looks to be driven by current events.  As Russia's aggression raised Senator McCain's standing the the US, it will also raise Netanyahu's standing in Israel.  And just to make matters more interesting, the Russian economy is collapsing. 
 
As we watch the economy of the US decline, we should see Senator Obama again rise in the polls.  The extent of the rise will probably be determined by the perceived depth of the problem. 
 
One of the factors moving strongly in Kadima's favor right now, is the disintegration of Hamas in Gaza.  Poverty in Gaza is unbearable, rebellion from extremists (so how crazy is an extremist to Hamas) is becoming out of control.  They have no apparent way out of their mess right now.  If PM Abbas can gain control of Gaza, and if having done so he continues good relations with Israel, (no guarantee) then perhaps some peace agreement can be made with Israel and the Palestinians--but then there is still Jerusalem.

Quote:

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

JimPhillips

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Again, this probably doesn't belong here, but since we have this thread going:  Former PM Bi Bi Netanyahu urges Foreign Minister Livni to call for elections:

Quote:

Likud leader MK Binyamin Netanyahu has called on Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, the Kadima Party's new leader, to set a date for general elections.

"This is the most decent and democratic thing to do. We need to go to the people of Israel and let them choose," Netanyahu told Livni by phone Thursday.

"He who fears the people's choice, should not lead," he added.


In the same article considering whether or not elections will take place: 

Quote:

"I estimate we are on our way to general elections and I believe the next government will be right-wing; I just hope it happens fast," National Union-NRP MK Uri Ariel said.

The fact that Livni, who is leading Israel's talks with the Palestinians, was elected might even help the Right force Kadima from power, he added.

"The public needs to understand that this government [Kadima] mainly gives up Israel's territory. We need a responsible leadership," he said.

shilohrb

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Reply with quote  #14 
I wonder if Mr. Netanyahu is throwing that out there about "the will of the people"  only because he's been deemed the front runner if an election were to occur? ;-)

If Ms. Livni is unable to get a coalition government together they'll have to go to general elections anyway, right?

If she IS able to get a government together, that means that there are others who are likeminded re: her desire for "peaceful negotiation". And yes, Jerusalem would be considered for the carving board too.

The next several months will be interesting to watch.




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JimPhillips

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Reply with quote  #15 
Sure, Bi Bi is just playing politics. 

I don't think the Jews will ever permit any of their politicians to divide Jerusalem again.  As I said, it brought down Labour.  It will bring down any party who desires.

As you point out, the mood of the people in Israel is towards a hard line military guy, like former PM Netanyahu. 
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